More on Life’s Value
I probably don’t need to say much about this:
Islamists in southern Somalia have stoned a man to death for adultery but spared his pregnant girlfriend until she gives birth.
Abas Hussein Abdirahman, 33, was killed in front of a crowd of some 300 people in the port town of Merka.
An official from the al-Shabab group said the woman would be killed after she has had her baby.
If you haven’t thrown up yet, read on:
A 13-year-old girl was stoned to death for adultery in the southern town of Kismayo last year.
Human rights groups said she had been raped.
After giving the matter about 2 seconds of thought (yeah, I’m running a bit slowly tonight), I’ve decided that I’ll bypass this value system and stick with my own home-brewed values. My values have two advantages for me and one for my neighbors:
1. They help me keep my food down,
2. They let me sleep at night, and
3. My neighbors need not fear that I will respond to their bedroom gymnastics – or rapes – with deadly violence against them.
‘Nuff said.
– the chaplain
It is so hard to believe that this stuff is happening in this day and age. Are the stonings official or is it against the law and performed by the Somalian “Taliban?”
Someone, somewhere will be using their imagined moral high ground, acquired, of course, from their choice of absurd religion, to hurt, kill, or control others, at least until we find a way to enforce critical thinking skills to every member of planet earth.
Lorena:
Are the stonings official or is it against the law and performed by the Somalian “Taliban?”
According to the BBC,
So, the answer to the question seems to be that a rogue group performed the execution without government sanction. I don’t think it’s legal (Somalia is not one of the six countries listed on Wikipedia as officially sanctioning it), but we have to remember that Somalia has not had an effective government in nearly two decades (see Jeff Sharlet’s The Family, for information about the USA’s role in bringing about this sorry state of affairs). The Somali president “has accused al-Shabab of spoiling the image of Islam by killing people and harassing women.”
Gee, ya think?
thegodless:
I assume that statement is tongue-in-cheek, as such enforcement goes against the grain of freethought. It would be nice, though, if people would engage in such thinking voluntarily.
Quite a disappointing follow-up to what was actually a thoughtful post, Chappy. You seem to have descended back into a strategy you used to run about 1.5 – 2 years ago. I call it the “Dawkins-Harris-Hitchens Shuffle” and it occurs when one uses isolated examples in attempt to establish a broader point.
I could just as well post pictures of the corpses in Tuusula, Finland when Pekka-Eric Auvinen stormed Jokela killing eight people then himself. Note that Pekka referred to himself as, “a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial social darwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.”
What would that accomplish?
Thirteen? Wow. I am shocked and speechless. Blaming women for rape has always made me angry, but for a child, I am floored. What did they think she did that was so adulterous? People who believe we should be following the Bible literally should really take a long, hard look at these cultures, because THAT kind of culture is where the Bible came from.
Cl, while not as extreme as killing people, an overall look at many religions does show that religious abuse is not that rare.
When you’re talking about amoral religious animals, what do you expect? This is not an isolated case by any means, there are tons of similar stories that I and others have reported on and it’s not even restricted to Islam, you get other religions involved too.
Chaplain,
Note that Philly’s views on morality as discussed in yesterday’s thread give full autonomous moral permission to those who perpetrated these crimes. The best any of you should be able to say in response is, “I disapprove of that.” Calling these acts “wrong” or “heinous” is just your valuation of them, and after all, the perpetrators are certainly entitled to their valuation of them too, right? After all, in their world it might be perfectly fine to do such things. Who are you to judge them, sans an objective standard to judge them by?
lauradee24,
Well hello. I just skimmed your post “Why I Stopped Believing In God,” and I’ll definitely bookmark your blog. I liked your whole style of delivery, and especially your stated intent of not being in it to change others’ minds. I also resonated with your remarks about “humility, misery and knowledge” – and the fact that the Christians you were surrounded with apparently lacked them.
Well sure, but I don’t think anyone’s arguing otherwise, are they? The implication I got from Chaplain’s post was that her “home-brewed value system” is somehow intrinsically superior to that of these crazed religious perpetrators. Yet, she can’t imply that without skirting the doorstep of “gene command theory” which was what we discussed yesterday. Under atheism, Chaplain or any other atheist’s valuation of life doesn’t mean crap to anybody but the one who decides it does, and if a person decides it’s “good” to kill then for that person it is good to kill.
Scary stuff, if you ask me.
CL,
I so hate it when Christians utter absolute statements
Quite a disappointing follow-up to what was actually a thoughtful post, Chappy
The statement wasn’t disappointing you. YOU found it disappointing, which you have the right to do. So, why not say instead, “I find the follow-up disappointing?”
Why do Christians feel that they always have the last word?
Lorena
Why? You yourself said, “It is so hard to believe that this stuff is happening in this day and age.”
Take your own advice and next time choose your battles more carefully.
Douchebag doesn’t practice what it preaches? Wow, what a shocker.
Religion inspired or not, the morality which dictates and condones such things as stoning girls for having been raped is inferior to that of the West. Yes it’s opinion, as are all morals, but in the West we’ve already agreed on many values pertaining to humanity and it’s easy to cite such a foundation.
Now is our revulsion reading this inherent or learned, a product of being raised in the West? I don’t know, but I’m inclined to believe there’s an inherent, natural reaction of revulsion. Supporting that theory would be seeing altruism and empathy exhibited in other animals and in human infants and toddlers. So rather than being sickened because we’ve learned to be sickened, I’d say it’s these people who have somehow overcome their natural inclinations, their empathy if you will, through how they were raised and the culture they live in. In this case, we can point directly at their religion for it’s the basis for the morality and it dominates their culture.
Cl,
I am choosing the battles I choose, not taking advice from you, not now, not ever.
I wasn’t criticizing the writer or anyone. I was uttering a non-controversial opinion. It is when we enter into controversy that we need to qualify our statements.
Coming to someone’s blog to utter your opinion about their writing like that is nothing short of rude and self-righteous. You spoke like a true Christian who thinks the water should open as they walk through.
Gee Philly, you are one tough guy! So tough! So confident! Such a….. man! When you insult others I just get so, I dunno… weak in the knees!
Get over yourself, tough guy.
Lorena,
Yet I don’t hear you criticize your Teammate PhillyChief, or SI, right? What gives? Why the special standard for atheists? Do tell. And as far as uttering our opinions on blogs – get real sweetheart! You do it all the time, ya feisty little atheist! We all utter our opinions on each other’s writing. I could just as easily say I think you’re rude and self-righteous for jumping on my case when I wasn’t even talking to you, but my opinion of you doesn’t even mean anything to me, let alone you, that I’d express it. So get over it; I didn’t insult Chaplain’s writing, I said the post was disappointing. It’s my opinion, just as valuable as yours or the next, and none of you have to like it.
Look, if you want nothing to do with me, that’s fine, but don’t criticize me for doing exactly what you yourself had no problems with three comments earlier, and expect me to not to call you on it.
You know, I actually can’t stop laughing at the special pleading, so I think I’ll have to comment again. I just hope that one “on-the-fence” person who might be considering atheism sees how Lorena got all missionary and accused me of insulting Chaplain, yet says nothing to the guy who calls people douchebag.
Could it be, because he’s ALSO on Team Scarlet A? I hope people see how much you folks tow party lines just like the Christians you criticize. It really amuses me, this pretense of freethought and partiality some of you come with.
Some of you guys really need to break from the pack; for many of you, this so-called “rationalism” is just religion for the godless. The self-righteousness, the herd mentality, the getting of one other sheep’s backs when a “wolf” comes around, the tendency to get emotional and defensive when dissenters challenge.. it’s all the same.
Cl, I was referring to this part of your comment:
“I could just as well post pictures of the corpses in Tuusula, Finland when Pekka-Eric Auvinen stormed Jokela killing eight people then himself. Note that Pekka referred to himself as, “a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial social darwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.”
What would that accomplish?”
I was just trying to say that abuse in religion isn’t just on the fringe like it is for the nonreligious.
PS Thanks for the compliments!
Laura,
I know, I got that. In the previous post related to this one, Chappy and ildi had skirted some “evolutionary ethics” stuff that I argued was nonsense. So, MY whole point in posting here was to express my opinion that I didn’t think Chappy continued her argument successfully. Pointing to the “bad things” members of an opposing group do, and using it to imply the superiority of one’s own position, doesn’t sit well with me. It’s just another Dawkins-shuffle. Anyone can do it.
Is there more religious abuse than atheist abuse? Certainly. The religious outnumber atheists quite a bit, so we might expect that. When and if atheism supplants theism, I expect we’ll see the same thing.
Hey, no problem. I’m the “weirdo” who compliments people who don’t share my beliefs.
Why? Because Philly says so? My, what a big surprise: Philly asserting the superiority of his own position!
• Launch into pure ad hominem with no other redeeming value to the comment when regularly accusing others of doing that and complaining about it vociferously? – check
• State opinion as fact when always accusing others of doing so and condemning them for it? – check
• Take a partial quote to support a claim that someone is stating opinion as fact when the rest of the original statement negates the claim (especially having a history of claiming that others do that to him all the time as a deliberate straw man attempt)? – check
I’m sure there’s a word for that kind of behavior. Anyone?
Accusations of ad hominem argumentation without evidence? Check.
Accuse cl of stating opinion as fact without evidence? Check.
Opt not to defend the special pleading and instead accuse cl of strawman? Check.
Now, let’s address your claims:
I do not reject your positions because I think you’re an AlphaMaleToughGuy with a big mouth who thinks whoever doesn’t think like him is a peon; I reject your positions because I’ve thought them through and disagree. No ad hominem argument, whatsoever.
I said Chappy’s post was disappointing. I could have been more clear, so there, I can agree with you: I could have said, “I believe Chappy’s post is disappointing.” I apologize for arguing like Team Scarlet A.
And Philly, I read your full comment. I saw your attempt at a disclaimer. That’s what makes your appeal that much more laughable, to me. And note, you did the same thing you accuse me of: state your opinion that your morality is superior to theirs.
Fun, eh?
Third sentence should read,
“Opt not to defend the special pleading and instead imply cl quote mined? Check.”
I was just taking my last bite of lunch while reading this. Now I want to vomit. (So much for your home-brew value #1.
)