I came across a review of a recently published book that was written by an author who died some time ago. Since I haven’t read the book, I can’t comment on it. What really caught my interest, and is the subject of this post, is the first comment that was left in the comment thread:
Both Al and Normajean were officer colleagues, fellow bandsmen and dear friends. If ever Saints were taken ‘home’ too early, they were; perhaps God saw them as we did, a ‘couple’ and thought, even though only in their 40s, they ought to continue side by side….
What utter bullshit! The only thing this commenter wrote that I agree with is that Al and Normajean died far too young.
“Perhaps God saw them as we did, a ‘couple’…” That’s insulting to both of them. They were complete people in their own rights, not just X or Y’s “significant other.” Moreover, I was always taught that God saw people as individuals: each of us individually must stand before God’s Throne of Judgment, etc. So, which is it? Am I an individual in God’s eyes, or just the deacon’s significant other?
This leads to the second annoying idea, which is, “they ought to continue side by side…” This contradicts Jesus’ alleged teaching that “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” So, which is it? Is there marriage in heaven? Or, is this statement the result of someone trying to make sense of two tragic deaths? This question brings me to my last thought.
There is no good reason to believe that Al and Normajean were saints who were ‘taken home’ too early. There is no evidence that there is any god at all, let alone the Christian Bible-god, let alone a heaven in which God, Jesus, Al and Normajean are all enjoying “happily ever after” while the rest of us await our turns to do the same. It’s a nice thought, but nothing more than that.
I honestly don’t mean to be callous – I hope I’m not being so – but I can’t see anything more than pathetic wishful thinking throughout this person’s comment. Two people died too young and someone wants to make sense of it. Since this person’s comment contradicts at least two points of traditional Christian teaching (individual identity and responsibility before God, and no marriage in heaven), it looks as if, contrary to what Christians often say about the consolations of religion, this person’s theology fell far short of providing either consolation or a satisfactory rationale for these deaths. In the absence of both of those things that he expected from his religion, and in the apparent absence of willingness to probe those shortcomings and their possible implications, this comment writer resorted to what must have seemed like the next best thing – he made up shit. Oh, it’s a nice story, very appealing – Al and Normajan together in heaven, just as they were on earth. But, it’s not congruent with either the empirical evidence available to us thus far, nor with the traditional teachings of his religion. In short, it’s all bullshit. Bullshit masked with a nice sentimental scent, but bullshit nonetheless.
– the chaplain






atimetorend
August 28, 2009 at 4:14 pm
I’ll agree with your BS statements, but not so sure about the callousness, which you yourself call to attention. Utter unsubstantiated BS like that offends me when it is presented as apologetics, as something which I need to believe too. I don’t care if someone holds beliefs like that and it makes them feel better. However, if it makes them a hypocrite because it doesn’t line up with the doctrine they profess, AND their doctrine is something they are trying to force on others, then maybe it makes more sense to call it out as utter BS. I’m not sure.
Digital Dame
August 28, 2009 at 4:41 pm
The Bible quote you pointed out from Matthew about not being married in heaven is one I used to like to toss at the Mormons when they’d try to witness to me. It flies in the face of their teaching that you have to be married to reach the “seventh level” of heaven, supposedly the highest level. Thus all the posthumous marriages into the LDS church. I swear if anyone ever tries to marry me posthumously to a Mormon (should any of my descendents convert to that church) I will return from Hell (since we long ago established that I’m going to burn) with Satan at my side and loose all the fury of the ages on them.
::::smoothing hair:::: There now. Tea, anyone?
Lorena
August 28, 2009 at 5:11 pm
but I can’t see anything more than pathetic wishful thinking throughout this person’s comment.
Exactly my thoughts. As if the Bible weren’t myth already, Christians usually add all kinds of dramatic stories which are anything but Biblical.
Side by side in heaven? Yeah, right.
(((Billy)))
August 28, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Many of the ‘Christians’ with whom I have had contact with over the years would take issue with that. Many (not all, obviously) see women as incomplete humans. Many Christian sects (Orthodox, Catholic, some of the Protestants) will not allow a woman to be a minister/priest, pastor etc. One of the churches I was exposed to in Maryland considered unmarried women to be ‘going against God’s will’ (which is (of course) ineffable (so I have no idea how they know that)) and a distraction to the married men. They would have no problem with a woman being considered only an extension of her husband.
Matter of fact, they looked askance at women who hung around too long after their husbands died.
(I was not a member of the church, but my best friend was. He escaped.)
the chaplain
August 28, 2009 at 7:20 pm
atimetorend:
Given the context in which the comment was written, I don’t view it as an apologetics statement. I see it more as a guy trying to sense of something within a framework that it doesn’t fit into very well. In his framework, everything is supposed to fit somewhere in God’s will and, therefore, make some sort of sense. In my framework, shit happens, end of story. It doesn’t always make sense, it just is what it is.
Digital Dame:
Since you and I will be sharing the same corner of hell, I’ll save your seat for you while you unleash your fury. I’ll keep the tea-kettle ready for your return too. Do you take milk or lemon?
Lorena:
This guy’s story was sweet and romantic. It’d be nice if it were so….
(((Billy))):
Good point about some of the conservative Christian views of women that still linger to this day.
cl
August 28, 2009 at 8:53 pm
I agree the interpretation went against the traditional teachings of his religion, but..
I’m going to disagree with that statement wherever found, as it’s an out-of-scope, inaccurate statement: what you really mean to say is that there isn’t any evidence you’re willing to accept, and that’s a big difference.
Spanish Inquisitor
August 28, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Oy vey!
(I’m leaving this comment just to get notice of subsequent ones, in case I need to make popcorn.)
the chaplain
August 28, 2009 at 9:55 pm
cl:
What a surprise.
SI:
I like lots of butter and salt on my popcorn, if you’re willing to make enough for both of us.
PhillyChief
August 29, 2009 at 11:22 am
I really don’t understand getting upset at the possibility that someone’s heaven comment was purely wishful thinking. That’s the fucking point, isn’t it?
the chaplain
August 29, 2009 at 11:42 am
Phillychief:
There’s no question in my mind that wishful thinking is the whole point of heaven. The guy’s comment just struck me as so insipidly sappy that I can’t believe anyone wouldn’t recognize it for what it is. After all, his sap is not supported in any way by either his scriptures or his dogma. It’s pretty much an implicit admission that religion is just making up stuff and believing it because it makes people feel good to do so.
PhillyChief
August 29, 2009 at 11:54 am
That’s indicative of every funeral I’ve ever gone to, but then who actually reads that book anyway? Not most Christians I’ve ever met (and by read I mean in its entirety and not just select passages). The only ones who actually read it are theologians, apologists, and atheists, and maybe a few ministers.
Btw, anyone here watch True Blood on HBO?
That Other Guy
August 29, 2009 at 1:10 pm
“That’s indicative of every funeral I’ve ever gone to, but then who actually reads that book anyway?”
This.
Robert Deidrick
August 29, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I knew the two people that were mentioned. I believe that I will see them again one day. They were Salvation Army Officers that gave years of service to mankind and their Lord. The author spoke in ways that other officers and Christians would understand and also people that knew them for years.
Bob is a smart guy. He knows the Bible and theology. The Bible that he and I both believe as God’s Word definitely states that there is not marriage in heaven. The Bible does speak of Christians after physical death of sharing together in eternity. One thing that sets some of us apart is that some believe that The Bible as truth, some part of the truth, others that it is hog-wash. That is the freedom of choice that we have in the USA. Be thankful that you do not live in Iran or another country where you are forced to believe in Islam and the koran
To those doubting. Have you really given the Lord a chance ? Maybe so. Do not give up. There is hope for today and more for eternity. This side of eternity we cannot possibly have all knowledge. We could not handle it. If you want to know more about life and creation , get to know the Great Creator-Jesus Christ,who always existed and who is coming again. Please don’t leave earth without Him.
Do you believe in electricity ? You turn on the light switch and you trust the lights to turn on and illuminate. Seek God and He will reveal Himself if you are sincere. Seek the Lord when He may be found. These are the words that Al and Normajean preached and they left this earth with a peaceful exit. I just wonder what the otherside of eternity looked like when they entered and faced their creator who loved them and paid for their sins as well as the sins of the world.
To some the Christian is a fool. Yes, fools for Christ. The Apostle Paul speaks of this. The Bible also speaks of scoffers in the last days. We have been in the last days for some time. Read the begining of Hebrews and you will see that.
I would be glad to communicate with anyone with a question or comment.
Blessings to all of you.
Bob Deidrick Former Major in The Salvation Army-25 years n3fsa@yahoo.com
Spanish Inquisitor
August 29, 2009 at 3:00 pm
I’m curious why you think that where you live has any bearing on how you interpret a book. Shouldn’t a book be the same no matter where it’s read? If the book is the so called arbiter of all truth, shouldn’t it be universally recognized as such, no matter where I park my butt?
the chaplain
August 29, 2009 at 3:05 pm
@ Robert Deidrick:
Thank you for venturing into “the lion’s den,” so to speak. You said a number of things with which regular readers here will disagree. I don’t know whether any of them will address those items. As you noted, we live in a society in which the freedom to disagree is legally guaranteed, something for which you and I are both no doubt profoundly grateful. You may thank your God for that, I thank the American founding fathers.
The only thing I want to note now is that I did not critique Bob Hostetler’s review. Since I haven’t read Captain Honsberger’s book, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on either her book or Bob’s review of it. The reason I say this is that Bob Hostetler’s intelligence, his knowledge of the Bible and theology, and his beliefs have no connection with what I wrote. My post was not about Bob and his beliefs, it was about the beliefs of someone else who left a comment on that thread.
If you want to revisit this thread and engage in further dialog, you are welcome to do so. I will warn you, though, that discussion here, as on many atheist blogs, can get pretty rough and tumble and I don’t censor anyone’s comments. I wouldn’t mind seeing you here again, but, if you choose not to return, I understand.
the chaplain
August 29, 2009 at 3:12 pm
@ SI:
Ha ha ha! You jumped in and responded to Robert D. before I had a chance to publish the previous comment. So, at least one regular ventured into the den with Robert.
PS – for those who don’t know where the lion’s den is – it’s behind the curtain behind the baptismal font. I had it installed last week.
PhillyChief
August 29, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I never knew the two people that were mentioned. I doubt if anyone will see them again, since they’re dead. The author spoke as a grieving individual who makes up stuff as a defense mechanism to cope with the grief. He could be a smart guy, since sadly intelligence alone is no immunization from irrationality. One thing that sets some of us apart is some try to abstain entirely from irrationality, some indulge here and there, while others jump in with both feet and go hog wild in it. That is the freedom of choice that we have in the USA. Be thankful that you do not live in Iran or another country where you are forced to believe in Islam and the koran, although you are expected to swear oaths to a god, acknowledge a god’s existence if pledging allegiance to the American flag, have acknowledgment of a god in the national motto, have states which still have laws that bar atheists from public offices and base other laws on Christianity such as “blue laws”, but, you know, it’s still not Iran, so woo!
To those believing. Have you given reality a chance? Maybe so. Don’t give up. There is hope for today and more for the future. In this life of ours, we cannot possibly have all knowledge. It’s simply unattainable. But lack of knowledge is no excuse for accepting things we just want to be true. If you want to know more about life and existence, find reliable reference sources such as schools, libraries, and scholarly journals but perhaps more importantly, get to know how to think critically for yourself instead of blindly accepting what you read or hear. Questions. Please don’t form opinions without them.
Do you believe in electricity? Well electricity doesn’t require your belief since it will illuminate lights when you turn on the light switch whether you believe in it or not. Its existence is a demonstrable part of reality. The same can’t be said of gods which is why faith is required in order to believe any of them exist. Believing in them may make you feel good and peaceful, but that neither makes them real nor makes believing in them right. I just wonder what the world might look like if people gave up such unwarranted beliefs and became sincere seekers of knowledge.
To some the believer is a fool. Yes, by definition they are, which is why they fall for things such as beliefs with warnings that doubters will identify you as a fool built in to dissuade you from doubting the belief. That’s typical of confidence tricks or “con jobs”, to fill someone with confidence in believing something which ain’t true. Read any story about cons or scams (ie- Nigerian email scam) and you will see that.
I would be glad to communicate with anyone with a question or comment.
Have a nice day
PhillyChief Former Colonel in the KISS Army – 25 years phillychief@youmademesayit.com
the chaplain
August 29, 2009 at 4:10 pm
@ Philly:
I never knew you were in the KISS Army. Did you do their album art?
Robert Deidrick
August 29, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Thanks for responding. You did not let me down. I certainly would agree with some of your comments, but not too many. I think debating several issues here would be almost worthless
and senseless. Most folks here seem to have their minds made up about death and taxes.
So…. I will move on to other avenues of service and adventure .
Keep an open mind folks. You do make people think. I will pray for you all. It is the least that I can do.
Bob
Digital Dame
August 29, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Perhaps I should offer to return the favor and make a burnt offering to Satan in Bob’s name?
Honestly, I don’t know how else to get across to these people that I don’t want their sanctimonious, self-righteous prayers.
the chaplain
August 29, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Digital Dame:
Since Satan doesn’t exist, I assume your offer to make a sacrifice is actually an invitation to a BBQ. Count me in!
Robert Deidrick
August 29, 2009 at 10:24 pm
DD I guess you do not know me. I am humble. I was given a humility pin in church.
I do not understand why they took it away from me when I put in on my shirt at church !
I guess I could include you in my prayer . You must have believed when I said all that I meant ALL !
Thank you for your trust.
Love the site.
the chaplain
August 29, 2009 at 10:40 pm
@ Robert:
Is there an alternate meaning of “all” that DD missed?
She was the second commenter on this thread. Is there a reason why should she have thought that “all” meant “all except DD?” or, “all of those who responded to my first comment – the people who commented before that don’t count?”
Robert Deidrick
August 30, 2009 at 12:40 am
I missed something here, sorry. I though that she would respond.
Anyway I must have missed that fact. Too much reading tonight and jumping to
sites.
Never mind.
PhillyChief
August 30, 2009 at 10:31 am
So does that mean you haven’t made up your mind, and that it still remains open to the possibility that there is no god or heaven? Surely if you’re stating that having one’s mind made up is wrong, then yours can’t be or else that would be hypocritical, no?
Robert Deidrick
August 30, 2009 at 11:08 am
Love your smile chief sitting bull. Judas went out and hung himself.
You should do likewise. Two verses thrown together . You are a twisted
individual.
Excuse me while I kiss the sky, Mr Apollyon.
the chaplain
August 30, 2009 at 11:32 am
@ Robert:
Wow! Your Christian love for Phillychief is just oozing off my screen. Do you honestly expect anyone to take your preaching seriously when you call someone who disagrees with you a “twisted individual?”
Philly’s question to you was not the least bit unreasonable. His “throwing together” of two of your lines was not inappropriate, since they were linked, by you, in the same train of thought. In contrast, the two Bible verses you pasted together and threw at him were not linked in the same train of thought and they were combined to create – I’ll put this mildly – a less than loving message. You’re apparently pretty good at wielding that Bible as a sword.
The point of the lines that Philly threw together was that you were exhorting us to keep our minds open to your preaching; if you want us to be open to your gospel, why shouldn’t we expect the same of you?
May I remind you of what you told your buddies at FSAOF about us?
What would your pals think if they came here and saw your comment to Phillychief? Whose comment is more nausea-inducing? Whose comment is more sarcastic and mocking?
Digital Dame
August 30, 2009 at 11:40 am
Robert Diedrick said: “Judas went out and hung himself.
You should do likewise.”
Wow, so now in addition to not being the least bit humble as you claimed, you are advocating and encouraging suicide?
Robert Deidrick
August 30, 2009 at 11:41 am
You guys are fast.
Robert Deidrick
August 30, 2009 at 11:44 am
What happened to the other link. Something got by-passed.
It makes an incomplete thread.
the chaplain
August 30, 2009 at 11:47 am
@ Robert:
I checked my comments log and didn’t find another link. Would you mind re-posting it?
Robert Deidrick
August 30, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Chaplain,
Once again thanks for your explanation.
PhillyChief
August 30, 2009 at 12:01 pm
So all that keep an open mind business was just a one-way street then, Robbie?
Shouldn’t Christians be more fond of Judas? You wouldn’t have your whole resurrection, pay for the sins thing without him. He’s essential for your whole religion.
That Other Guy
August 30, 2009 at 12:02 pm
That and the Bible can’t make up its mind how Judas died. He either hung himself or exploded.
cl
August 30, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Seems these threads have a way of derailing themselves no matter who’s around, eh? To me, Robert is not worth our time, at least not in this thread. I mean, he’s not even making any arguments, just ranting, and there’s not even any entertainment value to justify continuing with him because his rants are nowhere near as funny as Gideon‘s.
That Other Guy,
I disagree. You’ve offered a false dichotomy, and I’m interested in hearing the support for your claim.
Ric
August 30, 2009 at 3:14 pm
The lion’s den? Snarrrl! Careful where you tread, Chappie.
Be that as it may, perhaps you’d like to join the group I’m currently creating, which will advocate for the civil rights of angels. They should be able to marry just like the rest of us. (Maybe they should pay taxes too, seeing as how they own so much land and so many buildings out here in the real world through their proxy priests. No taxes, no fire engine service. Let it burn.) But back to civil rights – angels have been secretive about their sexual practices, and they shouldn’t have to explain them to get married. After all, it’s nobody’s business who puts what where with whom how often. So let’s all get together and petition Congress to repeal the Angel Sex Discrimination Laws so these things can get married, or just bang Congressmen’s wives if they want. Let’s put the freedom back in the Free Universe!
(Oh come on, it makes as much sense as anything that SA scofflaw Deidrick said.)
the chaplain
August 30, 2009 at 3:44 pm
@ Ric:
LOL! You’ve got a good point. If angels exist, then they should have the rights to have sex and pay taxes too. They can even pay taxes for having sex, if that will make you happy.
Robert Deidrick
August 30, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Ric,
You do bring up a good point about angels. Some of them did some nasty things.
It is thought by some that some angels impregnated woman and that the off-spring
are what is known today as aliens, and I do not mean from Mexico either. Anyway
sounds like a good science fiction since neither some Christians and non would believe it.
Ric
August 30, 2009 at 7:42 pm
chappie -
Hell, I’d pay taxes if I could have sex. You know, before I die. Just one more time. (whine)
diedrick -
Apparently angels get laid more than I do. Godammit!
Shan
September 1, 2009 at 9:04 pm
lol George Carlin (RIP) said it best…why does no one ever speak of their loved one who they know should be in “HELL” lol….like really who says….oh AL and NORMAJEAN are looking up at us from hell..instead of looking down from heaven
That Other Guy
September 6, 2009 at 12:34 pm
“I disagree. You’ve offered a false dichotomy, and I’m interested in hearing the support for your claim.”
Oh for crying out—
http://errancy.org/judas.html
No, he did not hang himself and then explode; that attempt to make the contradiction go away makes even less sense.
Vitamin R
September 7, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I don’t think you’re being callous, I think you’re calling the religious on using the untimely death of two people to reinforce their religion. To reaffirm that everyone in their little coterie is still crazy and deluded in the same way. Not that that’s all they’re doing. I think there’s definitely a strong element of hope, and wishful thinking that’s kinda poignant . . . but nonetheless stupid and lazy.
Although using those deaths–something that touches, and gives pause even to people who’ve never met Al or Normajean–as a way to reinforce stupid and lazy non-thinking is, in itself, kinda clever. Probably unconsciously clever, in this case :/