What the Hell?
In October 2007, PZ Myers wrote a post that included a link to a video, “A Letter From Hell,” that was quite popular on GodTube back in those days. If you click on that link now, you’ll get this message:
Hmm. That’s interesting. When I clicked on the link last fall, I was treated to a video and a comment thread that was several hundred comments long. I wonder why a video that was once approved is now awaiting approval? Does anyone else besides me smell something fishy over at GodTube? Fortunately, Richard Dawkins was on the case; he’s preserved copies of the video, complete with the GodTube logo in the upper right hand corner.
The take-home message of that video was that Christians who fail to bring their friends to Jesus are responsible if those friends end up in hell. Wow. No wonder so many Christians are so hell-bent on getting us saved. Their consciences, and perhaps their eternal fates too, are on the line. It’s not just about us – it’s about them too. Who woulda thunk?
Well, in the grand, old Christian tradition of disunity, another Christian posted, “Letter From Hell: Return to Sender,” a video response with a different message. This time, the message is that non-believers are responsible for their own fates. Christians should not beat themselves up with guilt when their friends die without Jesus in their hearts. Phew. This lets Christians off the hook, which works to the advantage of non-believers. After all, if Christians don’t have anything at stake themselves, maybe they’ll leave us alone and keep their religion to themselves. Right. I can only wish.
It’s pretty funny that GodTube has posted a video response to a video that is allegedly awaiting approval. What’s even funnier is that the Christian argument is not over whether Hell is real, whether Hell is just punishment for unbelievers, whether God can be both all-loving and so deeply wrathful that he’ll consign the vast majority of people – the apples of his eye, the crowns of his creation – to an eternity of torment. No. The only area of disagreement between these two Christians is whether or not Christians are personally responsible for the fates of their unsaved friends. After all, that is indubitably the most important issue at hand.
Is it any wonder that many view Christianity as a small-minded, petty religion?
– the chaplain
We could only hope that Christians would stop trying to save us. Then again, would that make them more like Muslims? Oh, Christ…
“That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.”
– Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
It would almost seem flattering that they try so hard…too bad we all know it isn’t out of sincerity, but out of fear that they are trying to convert others.
Seems the pro-evangelicals have themselves a bit of a dilemma here. If they don’t preach at us, they’re fucked. Then again, if they do preach at us, God will know that they’re selfish bastards who are only trying to lay their hands on a “Get Out Of Hell Free” card, so they’re still committing a sin and are, hence, still fucked.
On the other hand, the anti-evangelicals are too apathetic for God to want to keep them out of hell. They’re committing the sin of sloth, and since every man is judged by his own works, their slovenliness guarantees that their rectums will be Satan’s plaything for all eternity. That said, if they do get all preachy, their invasion of others privacy could easily be construed as the sin of Pride, so it’s back to the pit of flame for more endless pitchfork sodomy.
Poor buggers can’t win.
Interesting concept, Hell. The great garbage can of the inconvenient and disliked. “To Hell with it” is really a telling statement.
One of my grandmothers was an adherent to Nightcap’s quote. She literally thought that in heaven one gathered around the throne of her deity and sang its praises forever while observing ’saints’ casting a seemingly endles supply of golden crowns down around a glassy sea. This was necessary and would be of interest because it was “holy”. End of discussion. But, apparently one would be granted a furlough to go down and watch the ‘unsaved’ being tortured by way of recreation.
My father would, upon hearing mention of the name John Shelby Spong, clench his jaws and fists, turn red as a beet, and literally shake with a towering rage. He would then deliver himself of some expression of christian love, usually delivered at high decibel and replete with profanity, and it would usually end with him bellowing, “That guy’s gonna go ta hell, and I hope it hurts him a lot”! Ah! The peace and love that passeth understanding!
He hated Spong even worse than he hated Madeline O’Hare.
My question for many of the more militant twice borns is “Why would I want to go to heaven and spend an eternity with a knot-head like YOU!!??” Paradise with them or the christian hell with Bertrand Russell. I’d feel less pain with Russell.
Evo:
I guess they could become more like Muslims, or maybe more like Jains, or Buddhists, or who knows.
Nightcap:
That quote is interesting. Would Christians enjoy watching souls in torment, or would watching souls in torment simply remind them of how fortunate they are to be in heaven? It might motivate some enthusiastic hymn singing and praying if one was getting a little tired of the whole thing.
DB:
There may be some sincerity, if particular Christians are projecting their tremendous fear of hell on the people they are witnessing to and they are at all empathetic, I can see how some might have mixed motives: I wanna stay outta there, and I don’t want you t’ end up there either.
Yunshui:
Selfishness, sloth and pride – that’s a pretty impressive list of deadly sins you’ve compiled in one concise comment.
Sarge:
Truth be told, I always thought heaven sounded a bit boring: one everlasting praise and worship service. Everyone needs variety sometimes.
From what I gathered from Diane Wilson’s book, Jehovah’s Witnesses teach explicitly that if you don’t convert or keep people in the religion, especially your own children, their blood is on your hands when Jehovah does them in at Armageddon. Ermm…?
Eshu: Wow. Way to propagate your crazy-meme. My copy of the book arrived from the States yesterday, I’m looking forward to getting stuck in (although Ex has me reading Bleak House at the moment… plus there’s that book on crop circles I want to get into… and I’ve just got Sagan’s Demon Haunted World in the post as well…)
Dammit! I hate those WordPress smiley things.
Yet another religious lie.
I’m not sure that Aquinas is suggesting that one of the pleasures of heaven is a ringside seat to the torment of the damned, but other church leaders have said so explicitly, down to this very day. Anyone who looks to the Bible for moral guidance is perforce not a very nice person…
Chaplain,
(I apologize, I think this may be long. Please delete if you feel it is inappropriate.)
I’m going to be honest with you. If you want to find everything wrong with modern Christianity, you don’t have to look too far. A peak into Godtube.com or HisHolyspace.com is enough to turn your stomach (turns mine that is why I won’t go to those sites). It gets much worse however; look at any local “Bible” book store, or at some of the “Christian” home school programs (seriously? Young Earth creationist? Really?), or at some of the “Christian” private school systems, or even at some of the popular “Christian” mega-churches. You will find all the ammunition you will ever need to rend and tear Christianity apart handed to you on a silver platter topped with a pretentious pretty white bow.
It isn’t going to be hard to find everything you need to say “See, it is a load of bullshit and that’s why I choose to be an Atheist.”
I believe that the modern Western Church is very confused as to how healthy it really is. We have people who post videos like the ones you mention (and I’ve seen both those ridiculous videos) and think that is completely okay. I am still at a loss for words that even today “Chic Tracts” are considered valid witnessing tools even though they are filled with lies and bigotry. It is an emotional appeal; nothing more than shameless guilt and manipulation tactics.
I don’t believe that this crap (which as well intentioned as it may be, is still crap) is a fair representation of what Christianity is. The “whacko Christians” are just that, and I can’t speak for them, nor can I be put off with your disgust with them. I’m just as disgusted. I’m even more ashamed that there are so many of them out there, but it doesn’t surprise me.
A vast majority of America proclaims some belief in God and Heaven and Hell and etc. I would say that many of them are not genuine in faith as much as they are genuine in just going along with what was given to them growing up. “Oh I was baptized as a child and went to church when I was little, so I’m a Christian…” is not uncommon. I hear it often in my line of work (and I meet individuals from all over the world). Those who continue to practice maybe part of some group that feels that this crap (re: the videos, etc) is an awesome way to rush people into Heaven. But…it is not the Gospel. It is not Jesus. It is not Christian. More like Christian-ese; something that looks and sounds Christian but is far off the mark.
I’ll confess to you that I am by no means a ‘by the book’ sort of Believer. The garbage that some of my contemporaries puts out there is nothing short of embarrassing. I apologize that this gunk is thrown your way en masse.
What I am, is a by the ‘Book’ Believer. My breed is out there. We are genuine in our Faith. We do share the Message because we have been commended to do so. I think that to a fault, we are too quiet. We should rise up and call out the counterfeit. Why we don’t, I’ll never quite understand.
If I may, here is why we share the Gospel: we believe (without apology) that without Jesus Christ you will be lost for all eternity, yes, damned to Hell. Even if we are wrong, this is what we believe, and we believe that there is a way to redemption. It is not ours to ‘save’ anybody. We simply can’t. We drop seeds, we water, but it is God who will sprout the seed in its time. We simply don’t want to see anyone die in their sins. This is why we ‘bother’ (though I wish sometimes we would find better ways to share the Gospel) unbelievers.
If you are right, and there is no God…then that is all there is to it. There is no God. I die and…nothing. It ends there. This is why sometimes I don’t understand the Atheists who are so zealous and find a need to convince/convert others to believe as they do because we will all eventually find out if you were right in the end. However, if what I believe is correct, then death is not the end. There is so much more.
Again, I will personally apologize to you for the inappropriate, misused, misconstrued, inane, and insane things done to you, to others, and to the world by men and women professing God as their excuse to behave as they please. I apologize for the tyranny and the arrogance of those who claim my Faith yet act in contradiction. I condemn the wolves who walk among my brothers and sisters in Faith to prey on them using shameful tactics such as the aforementioned videos.
Respectfully,
Michael
No, no, no, Michael. That’s not why. You can’t blame poor window dressing or a poor real estate agent for preventing sale of a house with no foundation.
Michael Brewer said:What I am, is a by the ‘Book’ Believer. My breed is out there. We are genuine in our Faith. We do share the Message because we have been commended to do so. I think that to a fault, we are too quiet. We should rise up and call out the counterfeit.
I know your sort of Christian is out there. Many of my closest friends are such Christians; good, genuine, generous, loving people who practice what they preach, and then practice some more. I’ve simply examined all of the evidence and realized that even believers of this sort (I was one) are constructing their own belief systems. (I’ve sat through (and led) more than my fair share of “Share Your Ignorance” Bible studies.) Yes, those constructions are based on particular understandings of the Book, but they are, in the end, people’s interpretations of what the Book means, or is supposed to mean, in the 21st century.
The Book is only as authoritative as it’s latest interpretation. In the 18th century, the Book condoned, or at least tolerated, slavery. By the mid-19th century, the Book condemned slavery. In the 19th century, the Book condemned female ordination. Throughout the 20th century and into the 21st, some have said that the Book endorses females ordination and others have maintained that it does not. Which is the correct answer? It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out – either female ordination, or slavery, or homosexuality, etc., is endorsed or condemned by the Book. The one thing that can’t be right is that the Book endorses all of the positions people claim it does.
Changing re-interpretations and applications of principles allegedly derived from the Book are not informed by clearer understanding of the Book, by newly discovered manuscripts that shed a whole new light on things (I’m sure you’re familiar with the joke about the monks who mistranslated the word, “celibate,” for centuries); the re-interpretations are informed by changing social and political norms. More often than not, the church has not led the way in advocating these changes; it has simply followed the lead of a society that grew more enlightened than its religious leadership.
Don’t bother throwing Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference into the mix. There is no question that the black church played an important role in the civil rights movement. But lots of other individuals and groups that were not religious were also involved in the movement. And we must not overlook the less-than-impressive role that many white Christians and churches played in opposing the civil rights movement. White Christians have no right to revise history now and claim the accomplishments of the black church as their own.
Again, I will personally apologize to you for the inappropriate, misused, misconstrued, inane, and insane things done to you, to others, and to the world by men and women professing God as their excuse to behave as they please. I apologize for the tyranny and the arrogance of those who claim my Faith yet act in contradiction. I condemn the wolves who walk among my brothers and sisters in Faith to prey on them using shameful tactics such as the aforementioned videos.
Michael, I know you stated this sincerely, but you cannot take the sins of others upon your shoulders. The only people who can apologize for wrongs done to others are the ones who actually do the wrongs. An apology by proxy is not sufficient. However, your assistance in calling some of your less enlightened co-believers on their stupidity is always welcome.
Chaplain,
Thank you. I appreciate you sharing your perspective with me. It gives me a greater understanding as to where you are coming from.
You bring up an excellent point about how the world outside the Church has had, and continues to have, a significant impact in our interpretation of God’s Word. This is an issue that I have been very concerned over.
I think part of the reason for this is that we look at the Bible with an incorrect understanding. Some look at it and see a book of social and political reform. Some see a scientific text book. Some see a book of codes and ethics. Some see a book of (my favorite) ‘good advice.’
Yet the Bible -as I believe it- is a revelation of God given to us; how we relate to Him, how He relates to us, how we have come along, what we have done, and what He has done/will do for us/to us, how to know Him, how He calls us to live, etc, etc. It is a very personal testimony of God that we must take and consider; to accept or reject. It is not a book which I may be given the ability to be a tyrant and tell you (universal, as in those outside the faith) to live in the same manner that my Faith in Christ calls me to live, nor does it allow me to be a tyrant to those within my own Faith. No, not at all. I can say, ‘here, this is what it says…,’ and show proper exegesis (2 Peter 1:16-21), but ultimately you have to choose what to do with it.
I am not so certain that the Church as a whole agrees with this as we have many Christians who demand our constitution be changed to reflect God’s Word, or that we throw out all text books from our classrooms because we can learn meta and macro physics from the Bible, etc. There are also those who don’t want to ‘upset’ anyone with the message, so we change our interpretations to fit a more politically correct atmosphere. Look at the ‘homosexuality: sin or no sin’ debate for example.
This disagreement within the Church may be why it would seem that the latest and greatest interpretation is the one that counts. Perhaps we’ve simply fail to encourage systematic theology and exegesis as tools to guide our studies…but I rabbit trail.
Thank you for your grace and your tolerance. I really enjoy these posts and the discussions.
Respectfully,
Michael