The Theistic Me vs. the Atheistic Me

2008 April 26
by the chaplain

http://thechapel.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/agdp001-150.jpg?w=150&h=150 Before I present the meat of this post, please indulge me while I make a brief announcement. If you scroll down my sidebar (Not now! Later, after you’ve read the post!), you’ll see a big link for Another Goddamned Podcast. The podcast, which features a fine group of intelligent, articulate atheists, is posted every Tuesday. If you haven’t listened to any of their discussions yet, you may want to take some time to do so this weekend. If you can’t do that, you will certainly want to listen to this Tuesday’s (April 29) podcast, which will feature an extraordinary guest: Me, the chaplain, owner and host of An Apostate’s Chapel and relatively recent de-convert from Christianity, or convert to atheism, depending on how you choose to look at it. I recently joined the regular cast for a discussion of my de-conversion experience. I haven’t heard the rough cut yet, so I can’t predict exactly what you will hear. What I can tell you is that I had a great time chatting with the AGDP gang.

Okay. That’s this week’s plug for Another Goddamned Podcast: presented by a fine group of intelligent, articulate atheists, plus one. Check it out.

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Spanish Inquisitor recently wrote a post in which he shared some interesting emails he’s received. An interesting question that arrived in my emailbox last week was this one:

What does the atheistic you miss, if anything, about the theistic you?

My initial, knee-jerk reaction to this question was, “Absolutely nothing.” Upon further reflection, however, I realized that one thing I do miss about my former, believing self is my idealism. When I was a theist, I sincerely believed in such Christian ideals as unconditional love, humility, sacrifice and so on. I can’t say how well I did with the humility thing. After all, bragging about one’s humility negates the claim, doesn’t it? I can, however, recall a number of times when I sacrificed, to the point of enduring really difficult circumstances, in efforts to live up to my unrealistic ideals (a sacrificial spirit is crucial to living a holy, Christ-like life), or to advance the Kingdom of God (another ideal that I took very seriously).

Right now, my understanding of those ideals is changing drastically and I’m much more skeptical than idealistic. For one thing, I’m not sure that Unconditional Love actually exists. The closest thing to it, in my experience, may be parental love, but I wouldn’t bet my life savings on that proposition. Maybe I’d bet a few pennies or nickels on it. Maybe I wouldn’t bet anything at all.

With regard to humility and sacrifice, I think there is value in both of these ideals, on the condition that they are not compelled. Healthy humility is learned via the school of experience. Every child wants to be the best at everything he or she does. Children quickly learn that wishing doesn’t make it so: they’re good at some things, sucky at others and fair-to-middling at most. As for sacrifice, people learn that it is often better for their group if individual members distribute goods equitably and give to others what they could otherwise appropriate forcefully. But this may be, ultimately, self-serving. The individual’s greater, long-term interest may lie in the realities of safety in numbers or interdependency. Individuals often gain a lot more by maintaining good relations with other group members than they do by going it along. Humility and sacrifice, understood in terms like these, are simply ways of dealing intelligently with human limitations and realities in a harsh, uncaring world.

On the other hand, common Christian teachings regarding humility and sacrifice are often used to administer “spiritual discipline” and keep people in their places. Greta Christina wrote a post recently in which she objected to the idea that “Everything Happens for a Reason.” Ordinary Girl also wrote a good response to Greta Christina’s post.

Some points Greta Christina raised are her objections to the notion that God Has a Plan for Your Life (check out the infamous Four Spiritual Laws, if you’re not already familiar with them; the tracts used to have really fugly covers in a color marketed as goldenrod) http://thechapel.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/fourlawscover2.gif?w=209&h=115

and the facts that this notion readily allows people to evade responsibility for the things that happen to them (or that they do to themselves) and to avoid learning from their mistakes (or the mistakes of others that have ill effects on them). Ordinary Girl noted that, when good things happen to Christians, they often interpret these events as signs that God is blessing them and that they must somehow be deserving of those blessings. On the other hand, when bad things happen to Christians, they are told that God is teaching them patience or humility or selflessness or obedience or something else along those lines. Shit never just happens. To the contrary, Paul taught that “in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28). It doesn’t matter if we can figure out what the hell that purpose may be. It exists. Accept it humbly and unquestioningly.

When Paul wrote that God works in all situations, he was basically telling Christians to suck it up and live with whatever circumstances they were enduring. For instance, he commanded them to be submissive to their religious and political leaders. (Romans 13:1 – “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”) Are your leaders corrupt or incompetent? Too bad, tough luck. God put them in positions of power, even though they know jackshit about governing. Live with it, “my country, right or wrong.” Are you a slave? Then be the best damned slave in the world; you’re a slave because God willed or allowed it. (Ephesians 6:5, our favorite NT author again – “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”) Are you poor? Then be grateful for whatever charity others give to you. Jesus himself allegedly taught that the world will always have lots of poor people (Matthew 26:11 – “The poor you will always have with you”). Live with it. The world is the way it is because God made it so, or (if one buys Original Sin and Free Will) allowed imperfect, corrupt human beings to make it so.

Conservative Christian leaders often tell their followers that they shouldn’t rock the boat, they shouldn’t make waves, they shouldn’t disrupt the status quo, they shouldn’t question their leaders too deeply, they shouldn’t doubt what they’ve been taught, etc. (to their credit, more liberal Christian leaders encourage their followers to fight for social justice, to ask lots of questions and so on). The conservative teachings I’ve noted are dehumanizing and patronizing to those who are wronged, and self-serving for those who want to retain power with as little opposition as possible. Thus, the Pope is infallible when he (and he is always a he) speaks ex cathedra. Thus, the general of The Salvation Army is God’s Man (or Woman – 2 of the 18 generals (an *ahem* impressive 11%) have been women) of the Hour for His Army; lower-ranking officers and foot soldiers should heed his commands and obey without complaint or protest. (That last bit is somewhat exaggerated, as leadership styles across the international Salvation Army run the gamut from extremely authoritarian to rather openly consensus-oriented, albeit within the constraints imposed by a hierarchical structure rivaling that of the RC Church.)

Some Christians – not all, by any means – believe that when your child is born with a horrible congenital defect, it’s God’s will. Accept it and cope with it. He’s teaching you perfect love, patience, dependence on Him…. When ministers are assigned to parishes for which they are ill-suited, they are assured that God always works through the ecclesiastical system to place them just where He needs them. He’s teaching them wisdom, patience, obedience…. Such tenets are shallow and stupid, at least, frequently manipulative and, at their worst, abusive.

Given my current thoughts about some of the ideals I held as a theist, you may find it strange that I miss my old idealism. The thing I liked about my idealistic self was that I was willing to look outside of my own interests and believe in something bigger and more significant than myself. I’m not a thoroughly selfish person now, but I sometimes miss – just a little bit – having something to believe in, or having a greater purpose than reproduction and survival. Rationalism and humanism just haven’t, to this point, given me the same sense of mission that I had as a Christian. A sense of mission, of participating in something Big, is intoxicating. Surrendering that may be one of the most difficult parts of shedding religion.

Would I revert to theism if it were possible to do so? No. Although I sometimes miss my idealism, I absolutely cherish my current freedom of inquiry. As an atheist, there are no boundaries to the questions I may ask and the areas that I may explore. My curiosity is insatiable. I love feeding it and would never again surrender the freedom to do so to superstition, dogma and pat answers. I love learning new things too much to return to a state in which I believed I had the answers to what I mistakenly thought were life’s most important questions. I’ve traded in my poorly founded idealism for vast intellectual freedom. In my view, that’s not a bad trade at all.

– the chaplain

18 Responses leave one →
  1. 2008 April 26

    I never was theistic but I do relate to what you say about Humanism missing a ‘greater purpose’. Unfortunately Humanists are so ‘free-thinking’ it’s difficult to get a consensus on what we should gather our resources and support or fight for.

  2. 2008 April 26

    I can relate to what you say about having a sense of mission. No doubt, that is one of the major attractions in a believer’s life – the feeling that you’re in on some big secret, that you were put here to do something important. And atheism doesn’t offer anything to match that. How could it? Some things, when you move away from theism, you just have to give up.

    However, I think leaving this view behind has its benefits as well. To me, the “mission” idea sounds too much like saying you’re a character in a play, and you already know how it’s going to end. It’s boring. When you treat life as if it were a morality play and your only job was to play your predefined role, it robs life of its true, deeper grandeur and mystery, and leaves it shallow and flat. I much prefer the view that the cosmos wasn’t made for me, that the future is genuinely open, and that it’s my choices and no one else’s that determine what will become of my life.

  3. 2008 April 26

    Humanistdad and Ebonmuse: Thanks for your comments.

  4. 2008 April 27

    Great works

  5. 2008 April 27

    Those ideals may be hard to give up, but they’re founded on deeply suspect notions. And for me, the notion that we can help people move from one place to another – not simply teach them to be content with where they are – is more inspiring.

  6. 2008 April 27

    Ridger: I agree completely. The idea that the future is ours to shape is much more inspiring and motivational than the idea that God has already planned our steps.

  7. 2008 April 27
    Ordinary Girl permalink

    Accept it and cope with it. He’s teaching you perfect love, patience, dependence on Him…

    That’s something that always bothered me. What parent wants his or her child to always be a dependent. Most parents want their children to grow up and be adults, even if as adults they don’t do everything the parent thinks is best. Most parents are proud of what their children become.

    To always be dependent makes the child something less than he or she could be.

    So it has to be a tool of power, a way to keep people in that submissive role.

    And thank you for the links. :)

  8. 2008 April 28
    sabrina permalink

    I agree. Intellectual freedom is wonderful, but having idealism and a game plan are good things too. I can only imagine how frightening it must be for a theist to become an atheist and lose the idea that you know why you’re here, what you have to do, and where you’re going. Humanism is a good goal but trying to get a bunch of free thinkers to agree on anything is like herding a bunch of cats:) Add some objectivists, Ayn Rand fanatics, skeptical libertarians, and apatheists into the mix, we have quite a community. But, I like to think its a community based on tolerance, and respect for different ideas and free thinking, and thats not too bad :)

  9. 2008 April 28

    I think there is room for idealism in a non-theistic philosophy. Humanism is full of idealism, it seems to me.

    For that matter, I do believe that sacrifice, humility and unconditional love do exist, though as you say, these ideals have been misidentified and misused for political reasons by religious zealots.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to one day see your skepticism give way to an idealism far more real and hard-won that the Christian version you rightly abandoned.

  10. 2008 April 28

    I’ve never understood how a belief that teaches ’suck it up’ is supposed to be one of hope. That sounds hopeless to me, far more hopeless than anything I’ve ever heard said about atheism.

  11. 2008 April 28

    Sabrina: I like the fact that the free thinking, humanist community is accepting and tolerant of those with many divergent views. I think many freethinkers and humanists practice healthy humility because they recognize that all of us are working out the answers to the particular questions we have at any given time. They also realize that none of us has found all of the answers, or even figured out all of the questions that can or should be asked. This sort of humility is healthy because it is always open to learning and striving to grow. It is very unlike the frequently observed religious ideal of a humility that is expressed as total obedient, unquestioning submission to leaders and gods.

    Mercurious: I think humility and sacrifice can be expressed in healthy ways, but must never be coerced. I’m still thinking through unconditional love. The ideal may be approached most closely in marital and family relationships.

    Phillychief: The “suck it up” attitude feeds into the ideals of martyrdom, of following in Jesus’ footsteps, sharing in his suffering and being willing to sacrifice everything for his sake. To cite just one example of this sort of teaching, consider this Christian prayer chorus:

    “Take up your cross and follow me,”
    I hear the blessed Savior call.
    How can I make a lesser sacrifice
    When Jesus gave his all?

    Those who can endure and suffer as Jesus did will be rewarded with a Crown of Life in Heaven. That’s where the hope lies.

  12. 2008 April 29

    hey chaplain,

    i know i’m not really liked around here, and i wouldn’t normally leave a second unreplied-to comment, but i want to know when your show is on! believe it or not i left with much learned from our last exchanges.

    at any rate, i didn’t notice a time in the post, or a station to catch it on.

    cl

  13. 2008 April 29

    AGDP #12 with guest star The Chaplain. Also available on iTunes, where you can subscribe to listen every week, and perhaps tell your friends to listen and subscribe and you all can post lovely review on iTunes about how awesome the show is. :)

  14. 2008 May 1

    I was an idealist as a young atheist. I had slightly different ideals, mind! Many of them were to do with knowing what was right and not following the crowd.

    Losing that idealism was the central crisis of my life to date. At first I felt as guilty as could be, but then I got towards the end of my teens and realised that, oddly, I’m still me. The ideals I had when I was young still exist for me; life may have rubbed the edges off them but they are not gone.

    I have to say, I’m really glad to have had that atheistic idealism. Maybe it was naive, but whole new worlds can grow from the naive ideals of the young.

  15. 2008 May 1

    You know, I think I’m quite idealistic, even with my skepticism. Sure, I don’t think there’s some great plan for me to fulfil, but that leaves me free to formulate my own great plan.

  16. 2008 May 6

    thanks Chief.

  17. 2008 May 23

    “A sense of mission, of participating in something Big, is intoxicating. Surrendering that may be one of the most difficult parts of shedding religion.”
    - so making the world a better place for our children’s not mission enough? I suppose you find the challenge of attempting to redistribute the world’s wealth so that no child ever goes hungry again boring or summink.
    You converts sure are a funny bunch…

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