As I noted in yesterday’s post, Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have agreed to attend a religious Compassion Forum that will be held at Messiah College (in Grantham, Pennsylvania – just a few miles down the road from the state capital in Harrisburg) on Sunday, April 13. The only presidential candidate who has not agreed to attend the event is John McCain. I might consider voting for him, except for the inconvenient facts that he’s a Republican (the party that has broken our government and destroyed our international stature and must be ousted from power) and he’s stark raving mad.
Mike Huckabee, who supports the forum (would anyone expect otherwise?) says, “The Compassion Forum will give the candidates a chance to talk straight to voters about what they’ll do as president to fulfill God’s command that we be our brothers’ keepers.” Excuse me. I don’t want or need to be “kept” by anyone. I’m not someone’s pet to be trained to do tricks and rewarded with sweet treats for obeying my “keeper.” I can have compassion for others, and demonstrate that compassion, without infringing on their dignity and autonomy. I don’t need to “keep” them to love and respect them. And I certainly don’t need to be commanded by any deity to care for my fellow human beings, other living organisms and even the planet on which I live.
The forum organizers assure us that “Each candidate will participate in a separate substantive conversation. This will not be a debate.” Huh? I’m all for shedding the debate format. But am I supposed to believe that each candidate will have actual “conversations” with an auditorium full of people? Or is this simply a PR way of saying that each candidate will give a speech, following which the candidates will field questions from the audience? In my book, prepared speeches – homilies, testimonies, policy pronouncements and the like – are not conversations. Neither are Q & A sessions, which tend to be carefully controlled, sometimes to the point of providing pre-approved questions to audience members.
Messiah College’s promotional page for the event says this:
Now more than ever, Americans motivated by faith are bridging ideological divides to address domestic and international poverty, global AIDS, climate change, genocide in Darfur, and human rights and torture. The Compassion Forum, which will be a will provide the opportunity for candidates to discuss how their faith and moral convictions bear on their positions on these important issues.
This is a good list of issues that need to be addressed by Americans and the world community at large. I’m sure that the good Christians at Messiah College are sincere in their desire to fight poverty, genocide and torture. Does their desire to address human rights issues include a commitment to ensure rights to the GLBT community and non-Christians? Will the forum organizers and candidates repudiate the disgusting remarks that Illinois State Representative Monique Davis uttered to an atheist during his testimony in a government hearing? Don’t hold your breath – I wouldn’t want you to pass out or expire unnecessarily.
Does Messiah College’s commitment to addressing AIDS and climate change include a commitment to using sound scientific methods of inquiry? Check out this statement from their biology department’s web page (emphases added):
The mission of the Messiah College Department of Biological Sciences is to provide students with a quality science education in the context of a Christian liberal arts college. Consistent with Messiah College philosophy, the Biological Sciences faculty seek to integrate the practice of science with the belief that God is the source of all truth and the one who created persons to glorify God within their environment and society. The faculty further affirm that God’s ordination of humans as stewards of His Creation empowers and requires us to respect the value of all life and judiciously use the knowledge gained from scientific pursuits to work toward redeeming Creation.
Central to and informing the program and curriculum is the Christian world view with its affirmations of God, humanity and Creation as understood from Scripture. Throughout the science curriculum, emphasis is placed on the conviction that the competent and ethical practice of science can serve as a way of glorifying God. As practitioners of science, there is a lifelong responsibility to self-directed learning and professional education, as knowledge is gained and revealed.
The mission of the department also extends to students outside the department that are in service courses. All students are given a basic understanding of the contributions and limitations of science which, when integrated with their faith, will help them as citizens to be able to make sound judgments regarding scientific activities as they impact both the individual and society.
The Messiah College Identity and Mission statement will give you a little more insight into the college’s philosophy, which was referenced in the opening paragraph of the biology department’s statement:
Messiah College is a Christian college of the liberal and applied arts and sciences. The College is committed to an embracing evangelical spirit rooted in the Anabaptist, Pietist and Wesleyan traditions of the Christian Church. Our mission is to educate men and women toward maturity of intellect, character and Christian faith in preparation for lives of service, leadership and reconciliation in church and society.
I don’t have any reason to believe that the college’s biology faculty is laced with IDiots or YECers. They may well be theistic evolutionists. I’m just saying that, if I were a parent preparing to send a child to college (which I am), particularly to study science (which my son is not), those statements would make me examine the science curriculum very closely before allowing my child to attend that college. That was the case before I de-converted. Now, I wouldn’t consider Messiah College at all (although I did apply there myself as a foolish youth; was accepted but went elsewhere).
The reason I have gone on at such length regarding the forum venue is that it highlights strikingly what is so very wrong with this event. Could the organizers have been any more egregiously insulting to non-theists (I’m including all of us, atheists, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc., in that group) than to host this event in this locale? Are the candidates truly this oblivious to American society’s biases against non-Christians? Or are they so concerned with courting religious votes from a particular subset of voters, and so unconcerned with appealing to, let alone representing, non-Christian voters that they don’t give a damn? Do their cost-benefit analyses lead them to believe that there’s a lot more to gain by appealing to religious people of a specific sort than there is to lose by shunning rationalists? If so, then they are both fools. There are certain blocks of voters to whom neither Obama nor Clinton will ever appeal. Some of the reasons for this are truly ugly and others are simply matters of irreconcilable political, social and economic ideologies. Most of those people are not likely to be voting in the Pennsylvania Democratic primary in a few days. The candidates have little to gain by participating in this forum at this time. If they can’t see that, then I have to seriously question their judgment. One thing I know for sure is that both of them have flunked my religious test regarding their qualifications to hold public office.
– the chaplain
H/T: My friend, the Exterminator has written about this forum. If you haven’t read his post yet, you should do so now.
UPDATE: Thinking about this matter some more, it appears to me that John McCain has played his cards wisely. He has his party’s nomination in hand. In bypassing this particular event at this particular time, McCain has transformed it into either an internal squabble for Democratic votes in the impending primary, or a premature stab at general election pandering by the Democrats – or, more likely, a combination of both of those. McCain has no need to take any action now in either case. He doesn’t need to pander to religious voting blocks at this moment. He gains more as a bystander than Hillary and Barack do as participants.
athinkingman
April 10, 2008 at 10:37 am
It’s kind of sad how the word ‘college’ has become so debased and separate from intellectual enquiry. Perhaps we need a new word for non-educational religious conforming institutions.
It is also sad that the candidates feel afraid of the religious vote. To me it is starting to feel a bit like: “We mustn’t say anything that might offend the Mullahs.”
the chaplain
April 10, 2008 at 2:42 pm
A Thinking Man observed, To me it is starting to feel a bit like: “We mustn’t say anything that might offend the Mullahs.”
The corresponding attitude, “We must not say anything that might offend the Christians,” has been a staple of the Republican party for the past 20-25 years. The fact that the same attitude is now so blatant in the Democratic party is disturbing. The Dems are not simply pandering to Christians in general here, they are pandering to the explicitly conservative wing of Christianity. Messiah College is not a moderate or liberal Christian college; it is quite conservative. It’s not fundamentalist, but it’s certainly evangelical-conservative.
A substantial number, but certainly not all, of the individuals and organizations – which include Jewish and Islamic groups – that are sponsoring this event are not moderate or liberal – they are explicitly conservative (a tag that rightfully carries a lot of negative baggage). Those facts are both annoying and alarming.
The Exterminator
April 10, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Your update is right on the money.
It’s also possible, though, that McCain is not comfortable talking glibly about faith issues. He has consistently earned a lower position on BeliefNet’s God-O-Meter than either of the Democratic candidates.
The fact is: The Democrats are trying to co-opt the Republicans’ theocratic base. This is not good news for those of us who would like to see religion removed from political discourse. In this election, the Democrats are at fault for sanctioning “faith” as an issue; they’ve done it over and over and over again, without a single one of those weasels speaking out to say that it’s not relevant.
That’s why I urge everyone to vote for The Exterminator and The Chaplain.
It’s the theocracy, stupid!
AphroditeRising
April 10, 2008 at 4:17 pm
It would be truly fascinating if both we (as a country) and the politicians could leave religion and God completely out of the election process. I wonder how it would change the whole thing….how their platforms would hold up.
Offelunse
April 11, 2008 at 2:44 am
Hello my friends
sabrina
April 12, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Amazing, we can’t get any of the candidates to debate scientific issues which actually affect everyone regardless of religion; biology education, stem cell research, alternative fuels, global warming, etc. Yet, the two Democratic candidates can make time to pander to Christian fundamentalists. Here’s a tip; they’ll NEVER vote for you. You support homosexuality, abortion, womens rights, and religious diversity and freedom for all. You have already lost. They will never vote for you, no matter how much you say you love Jesus. You can get a freaking jesus forever tatoo on your arm, but you’ll still lose. Democrats need to start pandering to their base, and not take us for granted.
Democratic candidates: Your base is concerned with science, the environment, sustainable energy, diplomacy and our standing in the world, women and gay rights, civil liberties, and rationalism. Please, pay attention to them and not Christian fundamentalists who will never vote for a democrat.
Phil Martin
April 12, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Greetings. I am a student at Messiah College, and I can tell you that the college is more liberal than you think. They adhere to their foundings loosely, but theistic (and atheistic) evolution is taught here, among other things that are not held by conservative Christians.
Chaplain said: “Does their desire to address human rights issues include a commitment to ensure rights to the GLBT community and non-Christians? Will the forum organizers and candidates repudiate the disgusting remarks that Illinois State Representative Monique Davis uttered to an atheist during his testimony in a government hearing?”
Answer: Yes, we include the GLBT community and non-Christians in our definition of humans, who are “ensured with certain inalienable rights” and I am pretty sure that Davis’ remarks are not quite relevant to what Obama and Clinton have to say, really.
Chaplain said: “Are the candidates truly this oblivious to American society’s biases against non-Christians?”
Answer: um, what biases? Most of America, last census, was still predominantly Evangelical. So, by coming here, they are connecting with a large segment of the American population.
Sabrina said: “Yet, the two Democratic candidates can make time to pander to Christian fundamentalists. Here’s a tip; they’ll NEVER vote for you. You support homosexuality, abortion, womens rights, and religious diversity and freedom for all. You have already lost. They will never vote for you, no matter how much you say you love Jesus.”
Answer: This is not true. Get your head out of the sand. Christian fundamentalists will vote for a competent candidate, sometimes irregardless of some of the things they support. I consider myself to be conservative, and I am considering voting Democratic this election. Furthermore, you seem to assume that fundamentalist Christians are against homosexuality and abortion (which most are, granted) but women’s rights? (unless you mean abortion again, then yes, but otherwise, no), religious diversity (no) and freedom (hell, no, we are for freedom as much as the next American).
Aphrodite Rising/ Exterminator: In a country predominantly religious, you cannot leave God out of the equation. That would be politically stupid. Why not leave whites (or blacks) out of the equation, sure that would make things fascinating, too. While church and state are separated, you can’t ignore the fact that all of the people in the church are also in the state, and most will be heading out to vote, so they, if no one else, will want to know what a candidate has to say about religion. Just like all the Latinos who head out to vote want to know what a candidate will do for minorities.
A Thinking Man said “It’s kind of sad how the word ‘college’ has become so debased and separate from intellectual enquiry. Perhaps we need a new word for non-educational religious conforming institutions.”
Answer: Sorry, “thinking” man? Because, you didn’t think, or at least, look. Messiah College happens to be, despite their religious founding and bent, a highly acclaimed academic institution. They have one of the best study abroad programs in the world, and many of their grads are in high-pay and prestige positions. The Harrisburg and Greater Pennsylvania public school districts have hired a high percentage of the teachers from the Education program here because they are better than the graduates of the other Pennsylvania universities. Consider that. Just because they are religious does not mean they are non-academic.
the chaplain
April 12, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Phil Martin:
Thanks for leaving a comment. It’s great to get an insider’s take on both the college and this event.
You are correct in noting that a large number of Americans identify themselves as evangelicals. That’s fine. Freedom of, and from, religion is a wonderful right that the Founding Fathers wisely preserved in the Constitution. I recognize that the only way any candidate will win any election is by assuring people of all religions and no religion that their rights to freedom of conscience and belief are respected equally. From that perspective, I understand why these candidates chose to appear at this event. I also recognize that, even within the evangelical stream of Christianity, there is a wide range of social, political, economic and theological views. I expect that this range, which includes some pretty liberal ideals, will likely be represented by those in the audience tomorrow evening.
I also want to note that Messiah does indeed have a solid academic reputation and I thank you for answering my questions about the biology curriculum.
You asked what biases American society has against atheists. Illinois Rep. Davis’ recent remarks (link is in the post) are a striking recent example of those biases. During a government hearing, this representative of the Illinois state government told an atheist, Mr. Robert Sherman that, because he is an atheist, he had no right to speak in that forum. Can you imagine the uproar that would have ensued had she made a corresponding remark to a Latino, a Muslim, a Jew…? It would have been all over every American news outlet 24/7 for days on end. And it would have been appropriate for the media to report it. Do you know how many major news outlets covered the story of Rep. Davis’s remarks to Mr. Sherman? Two: Eric Zorn wrote a piece in the Chicago Tribune and Keith Olbermann voted Rep. Davis “Worst Person in the World” on his nightly news show, Countdown. An American citizen exercised his first amendment right to petition the government, was told by a member of that government to shut up because he does not have the same right as citizens of faith, and only two reporters considered the exchange newsworthy. The prevailing attitude of the American media, which both shapes and reflects the prevailing attitude of its audience, appears to be that, since the remarks were made to an atheist, they’re not significant.
What biases are there against atheists in the USA? Are you aware that President George H.W. Bush (the current president’s father) said that atheists are not citizens because this is “one nation under God?”
What biases are there against atheists in the USA? Check out Susan Jacoby’s article , written just two years ago, about how it continues to be nearly impossible for an atheist to be elected to public office in this country. Check out this 2007 poll which says that 53% of Americans would not vote for an atheist for president. When you’ve finished reading that, check out this recent article. If you do some googling, you’ll find a lot more information like this.
You also stated that Rep. Davis’ remarks are not relevant to what Obama and Clinton will say tomorrow. I disagree. The relevance of her remarks is this (it parallels the concern of people of faith that you noted in your comment): non-Christians, particularly atheists, seek reassurance that these candidates value the Constitutional rights of non-Christians as much as they value the right to freedom of worship for believers of Christianity and other theistic faiths. Do I expect either Obama or Clinton to address Rep. Davis’ remarks? No. But, do you know what? If either one of them does, that candidate will score many points with lots of nonbelieving voters.
As I said, I appreciate your comment. Thanks for coming by.
sabrina
April 12, 2008 at 11:13 pm
My head is definitely not in the sand. Right now, the American Association of Obstetrics/Gynecology are being asked by the president’s appointee to allow physicians to refuse referrals to patients who need services they won’t provide due to their morals. That means an unmarried women may not be able to get birth control pills from her gynecologist, or even a referral to someone who will perform an abortion because of their bronze age superstitious religious belief. If a doctor doesn’t want to perform his job, fine, but at least refer people to someone who will. This is a matter of ethics and womens rights.
Second, how much slack did McCain take because he wasn’t conservative enough? He had to bend over backwards to win the conservative vote, do you think they’ll give it to the pro- choice, pro gay rights candidates? Do you really think fundamental Christians (who think jesus is coming back to the middle east) will side with a candidate that is pushing for a two state solution in Israel? Maybe the Democrats will get you and a couple of your more progressive friends, but chances are, if you’re attending a bible college (which is what Messiah is) you are a conservative Christian. So, they garner three or four votes but they alienate the millions of non-Christians and atheists out there.
Plus, if Messiah is so academic, I imagine you have had an American history class. In that class you should have learned that the US was set up as a SECULAR nation, so why is religion even involved? Plus, what would happen at your “liberal” college with your “progressive” Christian friends if the candidate said something along the lines that the divinity of Jesus was nonsense, and non-theists were just as moral as theists. You know what would happen, Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t get elected. Along with Abraham Lincoln or James Madison.
Right now there are serious problems facing this nation. There is a recession, a housing crisis, a costly war, a growing deficit, people without adequate health insurance, hell, theres still people from Katrina living in trailers. There are questions about renewable energy, stem cell research, mapping the human genome, where education is going in this country, an increasing high school drop out rate, 1 in 4 teenage girls with STD’s, violent crime, increasing poverty in cities, an unfair tax system; hell, the list goes on and on. And you think the candidates need to talk about 2000 yr old ridiculous bronze age myths?! Get a clue and get real.
wordsseldomsaid
April 13, 2008 at 11:45 pm
“If a doctor doesn’t want to perform his job, fine, but at least refer people to someone who will. This is a matter of ethics and womens rights.”
how so?..if she wants those things, why should someone who doe snot believe they are correct have to provide her with a venue for obtaining them…she can go to the library and gain access to that info herself…
no one owes her the info…what about the doctors right not to give it…?…
sabrina
April 15, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Because as a doctor, you cannot deny medical treatment. If you do not want to, by the guidelines of the AMA, you have to refer her to somebody who can. The last thing a woman needs is to call every ob-gyn in town, asking if they can give her birth control pills if she is not married. As a doctor, it is not your right to pass judgment on your patients, and to deny them care because of your belief in superstitions. If this is a problem, there are other career paths.
cl
April 23, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Nice post. It’s kind of unrelated, but I was wondering why you chose to highlight the words “All students are given a basic understanding of the contributions and limitations of science…” ??
newmembersforutoo
November 18, 2009 at 10:28 am
I just wanted to say Hi because this is the first time I am ever posting on a forum. I do not know if this is allowed or not to post here, but I hope I won’t be banned from me. So be happy for me that I finally achieved posting on a forum after many years of neglect!
excurebreasse
January 3, 2010 at 4:08 am
Moral dilemna!
Wazzup! Bored in class here, decided to introduce myself.
OK actually I had something on my mind. There was this occurence… School was out and I was heading home, I was hungry so I dropped into this place for a snack and ordered a sandwitch and then went off to eat it in a corner after finishing it I realized I had not paid for it!
Yeah evidently they were super busy and distracted because there was this manager/investor type looking around everywhere and talking to them. So I was just about to go up to the counter and say I hadn’t paid but then I realized if I did that the owner guy might get mad at the employees. So I just left. What should I have done do you think?
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